They announced their marriage<\/a> while collecting an Emmy in 2021 for best directing in a comedy series.) Downs also stars as Jimmy, Ava and Deborah\u2019s put-upon manager. In another window was Jen Statsky, the third showrunner. Aniello and Statsky met in a sketch comedy group in 2009; Downs and Aniello met at an improv class that same year. Which is to say that their passion for comedy, with or without trauma, runs long and deep.<\/p>\nIn an hourlong conversation, they discussed ambition, addiction and whether the anything-for-a-laugh ethos is worth it. (Short answer: Yes.) These are edited excerpts from the conversation.<\/p>\n
Season 2 left Deborah and Ava in a good place. Deborah had shot a successful special; Ava was making her own way. But now, at the end Season 3, their relationship is a disaster once again. You couldn\u2019t leave well enough alone, could you?<\/strong><\/p>\nLUCIA ANIELLO <\/strong>Where\u2019s the fun in that? We like to have the audience feel the rug is pulled out from under them. That also forces us to push the characters and their relationship further.<\/p>\nBut why wasn\u2019t that enough for them? Why can\u2019t they enjoy their success?<\/strong><\/p>\nPAUL W. DOWNS <\/strong>For Deborah, it\u2019s really lonely and unsettling when you have that level of success and you don\u2019t have your closest collaborator to share it with. And as much as Ava is finally doing what she says she wants to do, there is something to the meaning she found in collaborating with Deborah and the chemistry. She misses that creative collaboration.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n
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JEN STATSKY<\/strong> It speaks to the truth of this industry, which is that when you start out, you\u2019re like, oh, if I could just get this job, that\u2019s the dream. That would be the pinnacle. But as you work, you start to realize that these career benchmarks, they\u2019re amazing and they\u2019re important, but they do feel hollow without people to share them. Ava is realizing that once you start to succeed, those things don\u2019t satisfy you wholly. You need more. You need to share it with someone else.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n
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But Ava <\/strong>has<\/em><\/strong> someone else. When the season begins, she\u2019s in a relationship with a hot actress, every writer\u2019s dream.<\/strong><\/p>\nDOWNS <\/strong>Her hot actress girlfriend is incredibly charming and incredibly attractive and an incredibly good partner, but she\u2019s not necessarily funny. A lot of people do comedy because they feel a sense of purpose behind it. Having that purpose and sharing it with someone like Deborah makes that relationship unique.<\/p>\nEarlier in the season, Deborah\u2019s daughter, DJ, compares comedy to addiction. Is getting laughs addictive?<\/strong><\/p>\nANIELLO <\/strong>Definitely. For some people, it is the most important thing. They don\u2019t care whether they\u2019re getting laughs at an arena or at an open mic in the middle of the day at a coffee shop.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n
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If comedy is addictive, is there rehab?<\/strong><\/p>\nSTATSKY <\/strong>You have that forever. I don\u2019t think it goes away. I think it\u2019s something innate in you. With Deborah, no matter what crazy levels of fame and success she gets, it still bothers her if someone doesn\u2019t laugh at her joke.<\/p>\nDOWNS <\/strong>For them, comedy is an art form. And like most artists, that\u2019s the thing that lights them up. They\u2019re choosing what is their passion.<\/p>\nMuch of the season revolves around Deborah\u2019s quest to land a late show. Why is it so important to her?<\/strong><\/p>\nSTATSKY <\/strong>When she was a kid, her family used to sit around and watch Carson and laugh together. That was a brief respite from a difficult home life. Comedy can be a survival method; I know it was for me. Deborah has this memory of it being the one thing that bonded her family. She wants to be the Carson for our time, and she goes after it more than she\u2019s ever gone after anything in her life.<\/p>\nAnd she gets it! A woman is given a major network\u2019s flagship late-night talk show, which hasn\u2019t happened at that scale in the real world. (Joan Rivers hosted \u201cThe Late Show\u201d on the then-fledgling Fox from 1986-88.) Did you worry that no one would believe that twist?<\/strong><\/p>\nDOWNS <\/strong>There is wish fulfillment in that for sure.<\/p>\nANIELLO <\/strong>We spent so much of the season jumping through all the different hoops of how hard it is. So we\u2019re not separating it too much from the real world. We also show the way that somebody like Deborah would scratch, claw, beg, borrow, steal to get the job. We hope that we earned it.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n
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Does late night still matter? Do they only give it to a woman once it is irrelevant?<\/strong><\/p>\nANIELLO <\/strong>We are going to explore that.<\/p>\nSTATSKY <\/strong>We have been talking about the glass cliff and women being given an opportunity only when that opportunity is set up for failure.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n
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Why can\u2019t Deborah give the head writer job to Ava?<\/strong><\/p>\nANIELLO <\/strong>There was internal struggle with her heart and her head. She does want Ava to be her head writer because she knows that they make the best work together. But her head says, I\u2019ve done this before and if there\u2019s any excuse, they\u2019re just going to look to the fact that I have a woman as my head writer and say, this is a bridge too far.<\/p>\nSTATSKY <\/strong>Deborah is someone who is a product of 50 years in a business that was really brutal to her. It\u2019s impossible to forget those lessons she\u2019s learned.<\/p>\nWhat does Ava sacrifice when she blackmails her way into the job?<\/strong><\/p>\nDOWNS <\/strong>She sacrifices her moral compass.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n
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STATSKY <\/strong>She\u2019s doing it to make the show better. And she knows for Deborah to really listen to her, she has to speak Deborah\u2019s language and go toe to toe with her. She has to be a formidable opponent.<\/p>\nI\u2019ve seen all three seasons. Ava and Deborah keep breaking up and making up. How many times can you rinse, repeat?<\/strong><\/p>\nDOWNS<\/strong> Five? I don\u2019t know if there\u2019s a number. You can\u2019t continue to do it in the same way. You try and shift the dynamics to keep it fun for the actors, keep it fun for all of us. But we\u2019re constantly trying to one-up ourselves and make it better and more surprising. What that means for the next step? I don\u2019t know, or maybe I do, but I can\u2019t say.<\/p>\nANIELLO<\/strong> We did originally pitch the show with the ending in mind. So we have an idea of how many times you can flip that card.<\/p>\nSo it\u2019s meant to be five seasons?<\/strong><\/p>\nDOWNS <\/strong>That\u2019s what we hope.<\/p>\nAre Deborah and Ava good for each other?<\/strong><\/p>\nDOWNS <\/strong>Yes, they are.<\/p>\nSays their manager.<\/strong><\/p>\nDOWNS<\/strong> But I really think that they are. They really crack each other open.<\/p>\nSTATSKY <\/strong>There are people in your life that make your life harder but better. Without each other, their lives would be perhaps easier, but not as rich and not as good. Sometimes it\u2019s really hard, but it\u2019s ultimately better.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n